148615-so-dominion-and-exiles-page-4
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6, Page 7, Page 8 Content I don't have the time to keep correcting you. There is no gain in it. You are free to make any assumption you want as I am not the internet police and you have already stated that you see me as a troll multiple times. You already predetermined the interpretation of everything I could say. But don't expect me to co-sign the nonsense. I used the terms provided in Lormageddon to demonstrate that both factions view each other similarly. You arbitrarily assigned a literary translation over a figurative one to the terms, credited me with the literal assignment and proceeded to argue against it. As long as you insist on dragging us down this rabbit hole, don't expect me to try and make sense of it. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the ride. Have some tea with the Hatter and the March Hare and play a round of hedgehog croquet *shrug* This. Edited January 11, 2016 by Bytek | |} ---- I make no claim to be infallible. It is always possible for me to misinterpret your statements or your intent. Which is why my last post was a detailed outline of my understanding of our exchange, to make it as easy and quick as possible for you to correct my flawed thinking. All you have to do is press quote, find the spot where I went off the rails, highlight it in red, and say "No, here is where you got it wrong and everything after this point is you being a presumptuous *cupcake* because what I actually meant right here was..." I can't make it any easier for you than that. And if what you have to say is in fact a well reasoned line of thought that actually supports your original statements in a way that is plausible given the backstory and lore, then I will be delighted to concede that I missed the point. I don't want to call out someone for trolling if the real issue is that I'm just misunderstanding. If I have in fact got you all wrong, I would be relieved to see my flawed thinking shredded--and I will definitely owe you a sincere apology for being such a cotton-headed ninny muggins. But that comes after the plausible defense of your position, not before. :lol: That's quite a shift in the goalposts. If all you had said was "I think both factions view each other similarly", we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. Here's what you said that I asked for clarification on: And when I asked you to clarify just how "vermin"-y you meant, here's what you said as a follow-up: Do I properly understand you to now be arguing that when you said that we know these things and that they're so clear, what you actually meant was that they're not to be taken literally and instead are just... a similar degree of melodramatic hyperbole? Will it take too much time to say "yes" or "no" and actually commit to a clear position? No worries, because what I expect is that you will continue to deflect and change topic and refuse to clearly address what you actually meant by your own statements for as long as I continue to ask you for an explanation that actually fits in with the backstory and lore. You making sense of it? I don't expect that. Not at all. But hey, I would be delighted to be wrong on that one, so please do feel free to exceed expectations whenever you feel like it. | |} ---- I quite disagree with that. When it comes to MMORPG's I'm a firm believer in "something for everyone" at least at the scale that Themepark MMO's wish to operate at. That opinion is based on the academic research done by the likes of Richard Bartle, Jennifer Mulligan, etc. When you neglect a facet or fail to provide attractive activities for that facet you will upset a portion of your customers. Frost (or at least the persona he presented) was breathtakingly ignorant of that principal. If he was sincere in that belief and used his influence to push that view that's incredibly damaging to the health of the game. I'm not trying to demonize him. I want to believe that he's familiar with his industry's research and the persona presented was just a bit of humor that backfired. They tried to do that in the Defile the Crew +20 and it's one of the worst missions. Save eight (4+4) of your soldiers from Strain goo and in cold blood murder eight soldiers from the opposite faction who are also stuck and cannot fight back. If you want mission credit you must do all steps. It's senseless psychopathy. Same with that Globellum mission. Awful. So no... no I do not want them trying to make the faction conflict "mean something" because they just don't get how to write conflict stories. | |} ---- You won't find any argument from me on that point! ^_^ I'm simply noting that categories matter for how we think about what games should have and prioritize. When you say "when it comes to MMORPGs", you're already limiting the discussion to the subset of MMOs that are MMORPGs. Not everyone views that distinction as particularly important or meaningful, which is how we get players who show up here complaining about how different this game is from LoL or CoD. I'm going to be incredibly cynical here and note that things that are incredibly damaging to health of the game are only a real concern for those people who are with the game after it launches and goes from making promises to making good on those promises. | |} ---- That's because the Dominion is unfixable without a major social shaking. I don't think Carbine has the resources to pull that off, currently, and so the only way is the lazy, low expense way: make the Exiles worse than they currently are. Which isn't actually making the Dominion better. That's the part the Writers don't seem to grasp. If you make a portrait with a pile of dung, then grabbing the Rembrandt that is next to it to cover it with the same dung won't make the first portrait less shit. Look forward to the next 'moral rebalancing' patches: - The Exiles claim ownership of a Lopp planet and start taking their resources while destroying the landscape and killing the population. - Queen Everstar hears a whispering voice coming from a Weave portal, "Soon, we will be one with the Weave!". After discussing it with the Mordesh, she decides all the Aurin who died and had a connection to the Weave are taking control of it and, thus, becoming gods. She makes the Weaving Statement where all Aurin weak in their connection to the Weave are declared second class citizens. - The Exile humans suddenly and for no reason start a diplomacy campaign with the neutral races where their motto is "Join or die". They try it with the Ekose first. The Ekose have to flee their planet and the Granok send part of their mercenary units to chase them all over the galaxy for a few hundred years. - A new quest is added in the world, only for Exiles, where you use a sniper rifle to shoot running prisoners in the back. While they are inside your prison. Edited January 11, 2016 by Ildur | |} ---- Just in the interest of hopefully good debate - something that you seem to be a bit partial to :) - I'd say that the problem here is that you're presenting your interlocutor with an unrealistic binary choice predicated upon:- 'Intelligent entities (including collective entities like species and governments) are completely rational, and are therefore incapable of logical incoherence... rationalisation... cognitive dissonance... doublethink... 2+2=5 or whatever you want to call it.' Not wanting to bring horrible, real-world stuff into this, but I'm sure that you can think of plenty of examples from human history where intelligent and otherwise civilised Group A fully accepted the sapience of Group B... but cheerfully considered them to be literally subhuman vermin anyway, in order to rationalise what Group A wanted to do to them. According to your objection to your interlocutor, this wouldn't be possible... and yet. Perhaps most of the folks in the lore are as into logical coherence as most real-world humans are? To me, this gives the lore here a nice amount of realism; I often find fictional factions to be a bit too neat and tidy in what they think and do to feel 'real'. The 'six writers, writing in different directions' point mentioned above comes across as a bit more how things usually tend to be in reality, than the careful product crafted by a logical, single writer: 'If they think A then it follows that they will also think B, and therefore never think C, and would never dream of doing D...'. Nah. I like the RP side of things more than most of everything else, and intended my main to be a catgirl slinger... because catgirl slinger and I usually prefer to play good chars. But I also made a Cassian slinger at the same time, and I much prefer playing her. I guess that this is because whilst I agree that the Exiles are less evil than the Dominion, I don't like to feel like my chars are too railroaded into doing stuff that they just would not do. It'll be more likely that my good Exile will be forced to do stuff that would be a 'NOPE!' for her, if she was real, that I will then have to try and reconcile with her char/story as I see it; than that my Cassian will be presented with an irreconcilable 'NOPE!'. The fact that she grew up in a Culture that has so many powerful factions pulling in different directions, embodying everything from merciless control/slaughter to something approaching Knightly Virtues (she being more into the latter) means that I'm pretty sure that I'll be able to more smoothly negotiate her story complete with all the 'why?'s. Anyway, it's been an interesting read so far. | |} ---- Between the current story progression and that one little thing in the recent Loremageddon entry for Kezrek it sure as heck sounds like Lore really did intend for the Dominion to experience a catastrophic social restructuring. | |} ---- ---- Oh, I definitely can think of plenty of examples of that, and I appreciate your willingness to bring the point up, given how much of a potential minefield the topic is. My response would be that's not people literally accepting two flatly incompatible statements--a genuine case of cognitive dissonance--that's people actively endorsing a pretext because it's useful to ignore a reality that will be expensive or unpleasant to acknowledge. And in most cases, it isn't sincere. Just convenient. In that case, the only thing that changes is where exactly the melodramatic, unrealistic hyperbole resides--with the person writing Loremageddon or with the races insisting on something that they know perfectly well can't be true. And if it's the latter case then we have to ask what it is they've done using this pretext... and that will assuredly not be leading us to the conclusion that they're all that similar. Not at all. ;) Yeah, I suspect that there's a very important reason coming why one of the few restrictions the developers have directly imposed on the player-characters and their status within their own race is that no player character Mechari is allowed to be a Millennial. My guess would be that whatever side the Dominion player characters end up on, it will not be the same side as the Millennials. I hope the game lasts long enough for us to find out. :mellow: | |} ---- ---- Because a Millenial would surely have hit level 50 by the time Nexus was discovered, and that would make the starting areas too easy? :P Edited January 12, 2016 by Ekzentric Lohner | |} ---- 1 Hopefully, being quick and vague will function as minefield avoidance. 2 I'd argue that the demagogues at the top, peddling the 'Group B is subhuman vermin (despite passing every possible test of being human/sapient)' garbage are sometimes insincere, sometimes not, but the uncounted masses acting upon this piece of doublethink are entirely sincere. It's precisely that sincerity that allows them to commit atrocities, that would have been unthinkable for them weeks/months before, and look in the mirror every day and say, 'I am a good person doing what is right.' Or die, or send their sons off to die, based upon their absolute sincerity, based upon that piece of doublethink. I'd be interested in what greater test of sincerity you have in mind than all that?... Probably best to leave all this fairly soon, but it's interesting to ponder whether the ability to doublethink with absolute conviction is a necessary survival trait for all (theoretical) sapient beings - including the other species in the game. 3 I'd argue that it may well be the latter case (as per above): "... with the races insisting on something that they know perfectly well can't be true." I agree that it then follows, "And if it's the latter case then we have to ask what it is they've done using this pretext... and that will assuredly not be leading us to the conclusion that they're all that similar. Not at all." I expect that at least one Exiles species would do to the Chua what the Dominion did to the Aurin, if they had the Dominion's means to do so. But:- i Would the rest of the Exiles permit this? We don't know. ii You can only really judge by 'when the chips are down' actions and not 'probably would, given the same means...' speculations. Given that 'did' carries actual, ruinous consequences for a lot of sapient beings (and can be proven to have happened in the lore), but 'probably would if they could' doesn't (and never will until it happens, if it happens, and can't be proven that it would happen until it has happened); I'd say that this makes the Dominion ethically worse than the Exiles. But ethics are muddy, tricky things, so I'd be interested in seeing if your interlocutor can pull this out of the bag and convincingly argue that they're ethically the same. I wish him/her luck with that, but it's not something that you'll find me arguing any time soon.... Cheers. | |} ---- ---- Up to a point it will. At some point, being quick and vague starts to become its own minefield, because at some point you do in fact have to present an idea with clarity. I think that argument excuses human rights atrocities in war instead of recognizing them for what most military personnel recognize them as: war crimes. I think that when real world examples of this go public, most people respond in genuine horror at the atrocities, a sizeable subset of people respond in irritation that the people doing the atrocity didn't cover it up better, and almost nobody responds with "I don't see what the problem is at all, they're subhuman anyway". Those populations respectively correspond to the three categories: sincere without doublethink, insincere without doublethink, and sincere with doublethink. So no, I don't think sincerity is involved there on a society-wide scale. We all have unpleasant realities that we don't like to think about, but we do still know what the reality is. We just don't like having it pointed out. Since this whole point is revolving around rather Orwellian concepts, I'd like to point out that there's two large-scale messages about concepts like doublethink to take away from works like 1984. The first is a cautionary one and certainly the most obvious: that the core of being human can ultimately break under enough pressure. But the second point is that the pressure required to actually make it happen is extreme. It is not easy to break someone's mind enough to get them to sincerely believe that 2+2 is 5 when you need them to. It can be done, but it takes the thing in Room 101 to get there. I think you can be less vague here without stepping on any of the mines associated with real world analogies. And I'd agree that there are many Exiles who would cheerfully do terrible things to the Chua now. They're at war with the Chua, the Chua are the Dominion's major source of technological and industrial supremacy, and the Chua are the main engineers of what's happening to Arboria. That is quite different from the statement that there are any Exile species who would have gone to Bezgelor to raze the planet with no effort to negotiate, just a short time after the Dominion made initial benign contact with the Chua. That, I don't see any Exile species doing. Not even the Mordesh. So no, I don't think it really is that similar. Not at all. By the way, here's an interesting question: let's play the "what if the roles were reversed" game a bit further and imagine for the sake of argument that the Exiles do in fact have that power and do in fact abuse it to invade Bezgelor after the Mechari's visit. And let's imagine that the Dominion's power has waned so that they're outnumbered and outgunned by the Exiles. Does the Dominion fly in to save the Chua before the Chua have officially joined the Dominion, having no real obligation to do so? I don't see it. I expect they'd simply re-evalutate costs and benefits of continuing to engage the Chua, decide that they were now unlikely to be worth more than the cost of protecting them, and wash their hands of the whole situation. Which would not be all that similar to what the Exiles did. Not at all. | |} ---- The Mordesh and Aurin in Celestion do exactly what the chua did and are doing to Arboria to the Torine and their sacred sites to collect primal life.... So remind me of your point again? The Dominion enforces it's laws, and if the roles were switched and hostile forces were attacking a species they had given technology too and they knew about it they would absolutely send the fleet to run off the attackers. They've done this to the Marauders before, and the Dominion actively works to prevent the exploitation of innocents by aggressive forces such as the Marauders (e.g. the Gauntlet Ship Hand where you (Dom) help Agent Lex take down part of the Marauders slaving operation) ) and the Ikthians (e.g. Farside mission sequence). So what exactly do you have to support your demonstrably false assumptions about the Dominion not stepping in to help? There are clear examples of them doing so, not to mention the work you do to help the Ekose, Lopp, and other groups you (Dominion) help when they are in trouble? Edited January 12, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- Been there already, Naz. It's just as silly now as it was in the first thread you flooded with logical fallacies, inaccurate descriptions, and waaaaaaay too much reliance on the ramblings of a pre-internet troll in the years immediately preceding his descent into full-blown insanity. If you are of the opinion that all moralities are equivalently valid, I don't see why you're bothering with this discussion at all. You reject the entire premise that it is even possible for one side to be better than the other, which means there's nothing to discuss. | |} ---- So you cant support your demonstrably false assumptions then? Ok glad we established that. I never said ALL morality was equally valid, only that Master / Slave morality was. Those are just two archetypical forms for specific moralities, And we see that in specific, both factions take their respective archetype to the best and worst extremes. The specific morality of The Black Hoods and ICI? BAD! The specific morality of the Vigilant Church and and the Judges? GOOD! But the moral archetypes (master/slave) are not good or bad in and of themselves, and we ALL embrace morality structured under both of Master and Slave archetypes. That we have laws, and punish criminals for breaking them is proof that we all accept master morality. And that we also consider intent in those laws and in our judgements is proof that we also embrace slave morality. They are not mutually exclusive, and there is no objective basis to make either moral structure any better or worse than the other (unlike specific moralities where there ARE). The Dominion are a pinnacle of master morality, at it's best and worst, and the Exiles are a pinnacle of slave morality at its'best and worst. And as I mentioned to Illdur, defamation only makes you look insecure, try to focus on the concepts and ideas rather than throwing insults when the ideas you prefer are shown to be incorrect. Edited January 12, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- The Exiles tried to open negotiations and were met with violence. The Dominion showed up on Arboria and started shooting. The events of Arboria stand out because even the Dominion doesn't usually do what the Dominion did on Arboria. What the Exiles do to the Torine is far more like what the Dominion did on Gnox, and even there the comparison isn't great because the Exile-Torine violence there doesn't actually ignite a full-fledged war between the Exiles and the Torine--which would have precluded their ability to work together later in the game. The Dominion pursues the Marauders and the Ikthians because both forces exploit innocent citizens of the Dominion. Do you have an example where the Dominion steps in at great cost to themselves to save people they have no obligation to help? The work you do to help the Ekose, Lopp, and other groups is not the Dominion committing to a high risk, high casualty, resource expensive rescue operation committing your military to confrontation with a more powerful enemy so that you can save people who aren't part of your own faction. Try again, please. | |} ---- Edited January 12, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- I can't think of even one time this has happened. Perhaps, someone has a lore reference I am forgetting. What I do recall is a lore reference stating something to the effect of that both sides feel reconciliation is not an option. Edited January 12, 2016 by Bytek | |} ---- | |} ---- Where in your arithmatic do the trillions of safe, happy, educated, and healthy Dominion citizens that the Empire supports (with universal healthcare and education provided by the VC) fit in? Even if we completely ignore the fact that in terms of sheer loss of life, the Exile groups have caused the worst atrocities, where is the peace and prosperity of the majority of the Galaxy under Dominion Law factored in? Edited January 12, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- :lol: Sorry if I seem abrupt, Nazryn's use of Nietzsche far precedes this thread. If you haven't seen the 59-page long megathread titled "So Technically The Dominion Is Not Evil" and want a giggle, I recommend at least reading a summary of the bulk of it that I wrote up around page 45. It does explain a bit that's worth knowing to understand Nazryn's argument, now that he has re-emerged to troll the hell out of this thread with the same arguments he used then. A particularly illuminating part of the discussion: he and I argue for several pages about whether or not he ever actually had staked out a position or reached a conclusion--with him taking the side that in fact, he had not. It starts at around page 40 and goes on until around page 43. Fun times! But I certainly agree that playing the "what if the roles were reversed" game is pure speculation. We have no way of knowing either way. It just keeps coming up as a central position of defending the Dominion's morality, that the Exiles would do the same thing if roles were reversed. First: the text you quoted was a reference to Exiles opening negotiations with the Torine. Second: If the Dominion had negotiated with their own citizens prior to armed revolution, the Exiles wouldn't exist in the first place. It was that refusal to negotiate that drove the creation of the Exiles, remember? | |} ---- ---- Edited January 12, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ----